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February 11

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Category:FBI Top Ten Most Wanted Fugitives

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The result of the debate was no consensus. the wub "?!" 18:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge both into Category:FBI Top Ten Most Wanted Fugitives, due to upkeep issues. -- Prove It (talk) 23:54, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:People with congenital or endocrine physical appearances

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:45, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:People with congenital or endocrine physical appearances (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete or rename. This category's name makes no sense. We all have congenital physical appearances. We all have endocrinologically influenced physical appearances (if that's what that part of the title even means). If no clear alternate name emerges, then simply delete. Doczilla 23:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:User:R9tgokunks

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The result of the debate was delete. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:22, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as personal user category. -- Prove It (talk) 23:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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People with categories

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The result of the debate was withdrawn. Relisted individually, see Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2007 February 14, etc. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:49, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:George Carlin - 7 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:Cesar Chavez - 4 pages, 3 media files
Category:Stephen Chow - 4 pages
Category:Glenn Curtiss - 19 pages
Category:Douglas Engelbart - 8 pages
Category:Brian Epstein - 16 pages
Category:Eric Idle - 2 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:Penn Jillette - 5 pages
Category:Alex Jones - 1 page
Category:Todd McFarlane - 3 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:Luis E. Miramontes - 12 images
Category:Michael Moore - 11 pages, 2 subcategories
Category:Ted Nelson - 8 pages
Category:Trey Parker and Matt Stone - 13 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:Penn & Teller - 14 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:RuPaul - 9 pages
Category:Martha Stewart - 6 pages
Category:Adam Smith - 11 pages
Category:Claude Shannon - 11 pages
Category:J. D. Salinger - 6 pages, 1 subcategory
Category:Hakim Said - 3 pages
Category:Norbert Wiener - 14 pages
Category:Steve Wozniak - 9 pages
Category:Jhonen Vasquez - 8 pages, 1 subcategory

This is an umbrella nomination because of all of these articles have very little content and don't seem to be very useful. We already have what links here, see also, and internal links, these just seem to be redundant categories. Iosef U T C 22:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: I have always thought that galleries should be avoided on Wikipedia. I thought that was why we had Commons. But none the less some people like them in articles so you should probably use Wikipedia:Gallery tag instead, especially in cases like Category:Cesar Chavez where there are not many pictures.Iosef U T C 23:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I was looking at some of our eponymous categories earlier today (and nominated a couple for rename or deletion), mostly in the Category:Categories named after writers parent cat. In some cases (for example Category:Celine Dion who admittedly is not a writer) the eponymous cat only holds subcats for albums and tours and such, so I'm good with deleting them and I'm strongly in favor of disbursing articles in the name cat to the works sub-cats and getting rid of the name cat. But in other cases (e.g. Category:Samuel Beckett and to choose one from this list Category:RuPaul the captured articles are such that to disburse and delete would require creating sub-cats which will (in Beckett's case) or will likely (in RuPaul's case) contain a single article and have no place to expand (Beckett wrote one screen play; RuPaul starred in one film that can reasonably be categorized as a "RuPaul film"). I don't like the notion of single-article categories so I wanted to perhaps get some discussion on the notion of keeping eponymous categories when the captured articles can't be sensibly disbursed without creating an unreasonable number of sub-cats but deleting them when everything can be more readily disbursed. Otto4711 00:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also noting the existence of Category:Categories named after people which has a vast network of subcats so a higher level discussion may be in order there as well. Otto4711 00:05, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Of those I know well, I think the category is useful and should be kept - Martha Stewart, Todd MacFarlane, JD Salinger, Matt Parker and Trey Stone - I think these categories are incredibly useful, in the same way as Category:Sacha Baron Cohen. It is my opinion that any person who is related to a wide range of topics is deserving of a category. Begs the question - why is there not a Category:Joss Whedon yet?~ZytheTalk to me! 00:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I realize that this may be the tip of an iceberg of renaming many categories or recategorizing many articles and/or categories (I think that makes sense) but at least it's a start. To respond to the rest of your comment, I think it is good to avoid categories with just one (or some other low number) article in it. That is why I nominated these categories. For example, RuPaul only starred in one film. That film should be in her article with an internal link or the movie in the see also section. It would normally be in the what links here feature (from the movie page) as well. We don't need a category for everything. Categories are suppose to help organize large groups of information. If I can get all that information easily without going to a category then the category is useless. As for eponymous categories in general, I think they can be useful in some situations. For example,you could have an eponymous category for Da Vinci that has subcategories for his inventions, paintings, etc. I do think that many of the eponymous categories could and maybe should be renamed but that could be a one by one basis. By the way I have a feeling that most eponymous categories are not in Category:Categories named after people unfortunately. Iosef U T C 00:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I just recently created the category for RuPaul. I do so in order to capture all of her albums she recorded under a single category much like the musicians have. I was going to place the category under musicians, but when I thought about it she is actually a model first and formost. I know that Madonna has her own category placed under musicians although she has also appeared in film. I thought that it was done so because she started her carrer as a musician. I then reasoned that RuPaul wouldn't be placed as a musician or an actor, so placed her in the catch all category. I'm not one to create a category that has one or two articles, but I thought the amount she has and the potential to have more warrented it. --Pinkkeith 15:01, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all There are too many of these for people who weren't really so hugely important so I'm not going to fuss over your precise list unless you add someone like Shakespeare or Napoleon. Craig.Scott 02:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I am unhappy about discussing all these together. It is not correct that some of these have liitle content. Category:J. D. Salinger has a sub-category of his books and several articles in the category itself. This is quite common for writers. It allows their books and other articles about them or about films of their book and so on to be brought together. For those categories I have a Strong Keep view but maybe some of them should be deleted. Please withdraw and nominate them separately. --Bduke 03:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
CommentI think it is correct to say the most of these have little content, none of them link to 20 pages themselves. The largest is Category:Glenn Curtiss at 19, most of which actually deal with Curtiss Aeroplane and Motor Company. The subcategory might have many links but those are not up for deletion. To use your example, Category:Books by J. D. Salinger is a useful category because it's subcategories rationally divide it into short stories and novels, of which there are 30 total. The category Category:J. D. Salinger only has six pages that should be in one of the subcategories anyway and the subcategory. If there seems to strong opposition to one in particular I would be willing to withdraw that one nominate it separately. I'll add the number of pages the categories link to so it is easier to see.--Iosef U T C 04:08, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Procedural keep - Some of these categories do not look particularly useful (such as Category:Todd McFarlane, which contain very few articles), while others do gather together related articles rather well (such as Category:Penn & Teller, which includes multiple articles on their performances). We should debate them one-by-one. The mass nomination does not allow for the flexibility needed in assessing each category in this situation. Dr. Submillimeter 09:17, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete There is no minimum category size, but categories for individuals are marginal at best and these are not among the more necessary ones. Osomec 14:11, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Dr. Submillimeter, some of those categories can go, but not all of them. Garion96 (talk) 21:03, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree in principle with deletion, but... I agree in principle with the spirit of the nomination. Generally speaking, most people should not have their own eponymous category, since all the links associated with that person are normally easily found in their main article. However, that being said, some of these categories may or may not have reasons to be exceptions to that rule. So my recommendation is to delete these categories, especially ones that noone has an argument to keep, but I would defer deleting any specific categories that someone has a reasonable argument to keep. (Basically, treat this like a "prod" - keep the categories that someone comments they want to keep or discuss in specific detail, and delete the ones that noone objects to deleting.) Dugwiki 21:51, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all except those questioned per Dugwiki's suggestion Eponymous categories are very much overused. They should only exist when the eponymous article and "What links here" do not do an adequate job of directing readers to useful links. Missing links can be added to a "See also" section at the bottom of an article. If the "See also" section is getting too long, it might be useful to create a category. I'd suggest that any category be removed it it will not result in making the "See also" section longer than 15 links. We should codify this in some guideline. -- Samuel Wantman 03:20, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Discuss each on their own merits (ie Procedural Keep)Bluap 05:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all except those questioned per Dugwiki's suggestion per Samuel Wantman. I almost think this type of logic should be used in the future to allow these discussions to reach consensus. If you want something specific kept, then strike through the nominate and create a separate discussion including the original nomination and your reason for keeping and updating the category nomination to point to the new discussion. If no follow on discussion is created, then any admin can unstrike that item. Vegaswikian 05:54, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - That procedure is confusing. You are effectively saying that a category should be nominated at WP:CFD for being kept, which makes no sense. Also, making up rules on the fly with a nomination like this is going to create confusion. Dr. Submillimeter 10:58, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dugwiki has the best idea here, no need to get overly procedural. >Radiant< 14:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Dugwiki's suggestion is pretty much what I was eluding to earlier. and I think that is the best idea. The number's I added were not added to suggest that there is a minimum number of pages necessary to justify the category. I added them for easier viewing. Furthermore, it helps to illustrate the point that according to Wikipedia guidelines (I know guidelines are not policy) In certain very notable cases, people are being categorized by the name of the person itself, for example Category:Abraham Lincoln. I don't think any of these are very notable cases. --Iosef U T C 00:54, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Renominate those you feel most strongly about individually. I don't think we'll come to a consensus here on which to keep or delete. I'm worried about a broad delete setting precedent to delete any eponymous category. --Vossanova o< 18:14, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Withdrawn I am going to withdraw this nomination because it is going to close at no consensus and I have come to the conclusion that the guidelines set up for eponymous categories needs to be more specific before a broad sword can be taken through this type of category. I will nominate each of these individually to gain some sort of consensus as to how to define acceptable eponymous categories. Discussion will also be at Wikipedia talk:Categorization of people. Thanks--Iosef U T C 19:35, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:US Department of Commcerce as Main Source

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:22, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:US Department of Commcerce as Main Source is misspelled, does not have a parent category, and I'm unsure whether or not it really needs to exist in the first place. It only has 4 articles in it. -- Beland 20:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Fibers

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The result of the debate was delete (Category:Fibers was not nominated). --RobertG ♬ talk 17:27, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete all as marketing for the The Golden Fibre Trade Centre Limited (GFTCL). -- Prove It (talk) 20:30, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I endorse this, my view is strictly confined to the Natural/Vegetable/Bast categories. Having said that I don't think that Category:Fibers was intended as part of the nomination.
Xdamrtalk 13:31, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Cinemas and theatres in Hong Kong

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:28, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cinemas and theatres in Hong Kong (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete Categories for cinemas and theatres are not normally combined. All the articles are now in the separate subcategories for cinemas and theatres, which in turn are in all the appropriate parent categories, so this category can simply be deleted. Pinoakcourt 18:03, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Fictional toy inventors

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Fictional toymakers and toy inventors. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:51, 23 February 2007 (UTC) Propose renaming Category:Fictional toy inventors to Category:Fictional toymakers and inventors[reply]
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, Just to make it somewhat more inclusive. :) ~ZytheTalk to me! 17:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amendment
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Propose renaming Category:Fictional toy inventors to Category:Fictional toymakers and toy inventors
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, the two go hand in hand and the category would serve better with a slight increase in scope :) ~ZytheTalk to me! 17:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:UTC-Please add timezone

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per the above discussions. -- Prove It (talk) 17:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Television channels and stations established in 2004

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The result of the debate was keep. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:30, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Television channels and stations established in 2004 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Contains one page, and created by an editor of that page; no similar categories exist for other years. Feeeshboy 16:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Atheist fundamentalism

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Atheist fundamentalism (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Atheist fundamentalists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete both, non-neutral POV neologism seemingly used mainly as an attack on atheism. —M_C_Y_1008 (talk/contribs) 16:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)}}}[reply]

  • Delete both, per nom, as neologisms. -- Prove It (talk) 16:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both, per nom. Subjective, and created as attack categories. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:34, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both per nom, attack, POV categories Hut 8.5 19:37, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both per WP:NEO and WP:RS. These appear to be neologisms primarily used in blogs.--Kubigula (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both, per nom. Subjective neologisms for sure. Antonio Carlos Porto 01:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both. If it even makes sense, it's hopelessly POV. Coemgenus 15:48, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both Looks like this was set up for POV reasons. Note that the word Fundamentalism specifically refers to stressing "strict and literal adherence to a set of basic ideas or principles", which doesn't seem to apply to atheism (which has no specific tenets or rituals to adhere to). So while it makes sense to refer to a strict, dogmatic approach to following the traditions of a specific religion as "fundamentalism", it seem to make sense to talk about "atheist fundamentalism". Dugwiki 21:58, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply see vote below, but in response to your specific point, some atheists rigidly adhere to the axiomatic belief that only a rationalist analysis has any validity. Just as the religious fundamentalist excludes any analysis without a scriptural basis, the atheist fundamentalist excludes any anlysis which includes the possibility of a spiritual dimension. Both forms of fundamentalism share a refusal to consider any validity in a philopsophical approach other than their own. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is a neologistic attempt to redefine a term with a specific and concrete historical meaning, and apply it elsewhere. We can talk about "fundamentalist Democrats" and "fundamentalist Communists" and "fundamentalist vegetarians" all day, but it's just using "fundamentalism" as an intensifier, and unmooring it from its historic roots. If we want to go that route and apply that meaning, then we should delete "Fundamentalist religion" categories rather than apply it more broadly; in this formulation it's as meaningful as "very religious" or "hyper vegetarian" or "super-liberal". I'd think that was a loss, because "fundamentalism in religion" is a real trend within religious groups, but it's a real trend that is specific to textual etc. approaches in religion. And fundamentalism need not be narrow-minded and exclusive, although it often is; it has simply come to have that (secondary) meaning. ... At any rate, while some critics of atheism have taken to using this term, it has not gained wide currency in being applied outside of religion, and so Wikipedia:Neologisms is relevant, I think. --lquilter 17:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both It has been repeatedly and thoroughly demonstrated that atheist fundamentalism is a contradiction in terms and therefore impossible [1] Heihachi 22:12, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both At least one notable commentator, Austin Cline of atheism.about.com argues very well that "Atheist fundamentalism" does not exist, and that the term was fabricated by apologetics in order to distract attention from the main arguments in theology:

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismmyths/p/Fundamentalist.htm

Wikipedia covers topics that are fictional, such as creationism, and flat-Earth. Given that Wikipedia covers a wide aspect of discredited and non-mainstream ideas, the aim of Wikipedia is to provide verifiability, and not truth. So, it is perfectly acceptable for Wikipedia to include topics that themselves hold claim to false ideas, and are accompanied with links/references to verifiable sources, however, there is no evidence that "atheist fundamentalism" exists, and certainly no atheists call themselves "fundamentalists". I would therefore argue, that to have such a category constitutes "original research", given that the term is a neologism, and takes the word "fundamentalism" out of the context to which it has any meaning. If I were to rude about it, I would describe this new category as nothing but pure bunk. Blind designer 01:32, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Strong keep both. I don't think that "fundamentalist" is a perfect term here, and I have doubts about its usefulness for religions ... but it's a widely undertsood term, and its imperfections are not enough to make the category useless. The article Fundamentalism defines it as a "movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles", and that attribute can be applied to both religious and secular beliefs. There is a class of aetheist (e.g. Richard Dawkins) whose atheism seems to be as dogmatic, intolerant and all-encompassing a characteristic as the religious faith of the christians who he likes to goad (just as the religious fundamentalist will only accept their own view of their own faith as the basis of any thought, the athiest fundamentalist axiomatically rejects any possibility of a spiritual dimension.
    I would like to see the category renmaed, but I can't think of a better name: "zealot" strkes me as being a tempting term, but it isn't widely understood and may be too closely associated with its orginal use in the politics of the 1st century AD Iudaea Province.
    However, I think that it would be horribly imbalanced to categorise religious fundamentalists, but not atheist fundamentalists.
  • BrownHairedGirl's description of Dawkins & why she would include him in this category suggests the way this category is being used or would be used -- as a clearly POV category. --lquilter 17:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to BrownHairedGirl. You said: "Its imperfections are not enough to make the category useless". As far as I am aware, there is no definition of "atheist fundamentalism" on Wikipedia, so without this, the category is useless. You said: "The athiest fundamentalist axiomatically rejects any possibility of a spiritual dimension". What do you mean by "spiritual dimension"? Human emotion, feelings, awe...atheists possess these characteristics, but to redefine "spirituality" linguistically does not constitute "fundamentalism". If you mean supernatural spirituality, there are many atheists who would gladly change their minds, if presented with evidence. Dawkins stated this on an interview with David Quinn. You said: "There is a class of aetheist (e.g. Richard Dawkins) whose atheism seems to be as dogmatic, intolerant and all-encompassing a characteristic as the religious faith of the christians who he likes to goad (just as the religious fundamentalist will only accept their own view of their own faith as the basis of any thought". Define "intolerant" and "dogmatic". Like many other critiques of Dawkins, yours are vague. Atheists can be intolerant of bad arguments, and bigotry, but that does not put them on the same plane as those who are intolerant of homosexuals, and Infidels. There is also a huge difference between "faith", that is belief in the existence of something without evidence, and a "justified belief" that is based on everyday experience. I am not sure what you mean by "strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles" since the above sentence about the difference between "faith" and a "justified belief" covers that. Perhaps you mean the scientific method; however, I am afraid that there is no single scientific method; scientists just sit down, and work out the best way to evaluate the evidence. I am not satisfied with this category, and I feel that it provides a platform for ill-defined propaganda directed at atheists, and represents another attempt to assert that one cannot escape from religion simply by becoming an atheist. Blind designer 15:52, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to Blind designer. I'll leave it to you to consult a dictionary on the definitions of "intolerant" and "dogmatic", and see if, for example, Dawkins dismissal of creationism as a "[[Richard_Dawkins#_note-24|preposterous, mind-shrinking falsehood]" fits the bill.
    The fundamentalism of Dawkins and other atheist fundamentalists is simple: their definitions of "good argument" and "bad argument, and their notion of "evidence" exclude the forms of reasoning used within the religious traditions, such as scripture. This a precise mirror of (for example) the scriptural fundamentalist, who insists that since scripture is the word of god, no other evidence or argument can overide scripture.
    I find both forms of fundamentalism equalling chilling and repulsive: they both rely on the deligitimisation of other forms of knowledge. And I regret your suggestion that this term is somehow "ill-defined propaganda directed at atheists"; apart from WP:NPA issues, it is mistaken (I am not in any way a religious believer, just someone who despairs at the aggrssive certainties of some empiricists and has too much historical awareness of how it has led us down some paths as nasty and risky paths as some of the horros of religious fundamentalists).
    Note that I do not advocate that the tag "fundamentalist" be applied to all atheists, just as it should not be applied to all religious people. Your concern that term is "attempt to assert that one cannot escape from religion simply by becoming an atheist" precisely inverts the purpose of this term: most atheists are not fundamentalist, and can accept the that there may be degrees of merit in other belief knowledge structures. However, some atheists follow such a dogmatic path that their thought-systems start to resemble a mirror-image of the religious fundies. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, BrownHairedGirl, your comments have just about nothing to do with what atheists are saying about the comparative merits of scientific evidence and theories versus scriptural authority. Unfortunately, some people have faith in the myth of moral symmetry, that is, if two sides do something roughly analogous, then of course, there is no difference: in reality, there is rather a large discrepancy between scriptural authority, which is often the result of multiple translations, and the reliability of scientific experiments, the results of which, are the same every time.
You associated "atheist fundamentalism" with eugenics, a well-known misuse of a scientific theory, and driven by political and social ideologies. For example, the deep ties between the German Nazi party and the Catholic Church were a primary factor in legitimising the Holocaust [note that atheism is not an ideology or belief system], and often misused to attack atheists; your allegation of a personal attack is a non-sequitur: I was attacking the category, not you. You mentioned Dawkins' view on creationism... well, I think that in the context of a 4.56 billion year old Earth, and mountains of evidence in favour of evolution, there is no symmetry between belief in evolution and belief in creationism: the two are not even remotely comparable.
You said: "I am not in any way a religious believer, just someone who despairs at the aggrssive certainties of some empiricists and has too much historical awareness of how it has led us down some paths as nasty and risky paths as some of the horros of religious fundamentalists)."

--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My reply: I am not in any way a religious believer, just someone who despairs at the use of Wikipedia as a platform for the propagation of poorly-informed nonsense about irreligious atheists, whether they be of a "particular type", and have the temerity to subject religion to intelligent critique, which, in the case of Dawkins, a mild-manner Oxford professor, represents a "chilling" and "repulsive" moral symmetry to those who believe that upon nuclear war, or a natural disaster, Jesus will return to toss Infidels into the pit, or fly planes into buildings in the name of their particular religion.
Overall, I think that your contributions to this discussion have demonstrated that the category is POV, and therefore a candidate for deletion. I trust that I am not being "intolerant" or "repulsive" by arguing that you are simply wrong on this matter Blind designer 02:34, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Blind designer, you are brilliant! You tell us that when an empiricist claims that people who don't adhere to an empiricist thought-system are "preposterous, mind-shrinking", that's mild-mannered; but when dissenters express concern their voices are labelled "poorly-informed nonsense". It doesn't seem that these categories will survive this CFD, but the fundamentalism is alive and well. Torquemada's successors won't necessaruly be those wearing dog-collars :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:52, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am not paying attention to any more of your trifles. Blind designer 13:04, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both. "Fundamentalists" and "fundamentalism" are being used here as intensifiers, rather than by reference to any coherent and discrete meaning. "Fundamentalism" in religion refers to specific tendencies and doctrinal approaches, and while people may throw it around loosely, as they do the term "fascist", there's still a background meaning to the term that lends significance to the phrase "Christian fundamentalist" or "religious fundamentalist". There's a huge literature on religious fundamentalism as an anti-modernist movement, the specific textual approaches, and so on. Atheism has no comparable "back to the fundamentals" movement, and can scarcely be classed as a movement of any sort anyway. The two are not parallel. ... To the extent that someone wants to create Category:Atheist advocates or Category:Atheist evangelists or Category:Atheist proselytizers, that is more likely to capture the sense of what is currently contained in Category:Atheist fundamentalists. (Although I think that I would really have to think for a while to see if that terminology is really accurate. I think Dawkins & Sam Harris & Peter Atkins would be better described as "critics of religion" or "anti-religion" than "atheist proselytizers/evangelists/fundamentalists/advocates". I withhold on MMO.) --lquilter 17:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both per nom, Kubigula, Dugwiki's comments, and Blind designer's comments. Wikipedia is not a soapbox nor a platform for spreading propaganda. KillerChihuahua?!? 12:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both as per nom. Dubious categorisations at best. --Plumbago 16:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both per nom. Useless and reflecting a specific POV. --Tex 16:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both, 'fundamentalism' refers to a relationship to textual authority which is inapplicable to atheism. These cats seem to exist only to push POV. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 16:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both - these are point of view categories - the relevant terms have no non-pejorative usage. They are also essentially wrongheaded. A "fundamentalist" Christian, as a opposed to a "modernist" Christian is someone who has returned to the supposed fundamentals of Christianity, especially a literal interpretation of the Bible - with a theological and moral system which flows from this. There is no atheist equivalent of this. Metamagician3000 23:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Metamagician, while one might be able to argue that there exist individuals who are functionally speaking fundamentalist atheists in some sense, it is hardly an NPOV term and is never used as anythign other than a perjorative and is nto discussed in almost any reliable sources. JoshuaZ 03:48, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - per nom.Bakaman 04:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or Rename. There is certainly something here: the distinction between the militant, closed-minded atheism of Dawkins and the reasonable open-minded atheism of say Martin Rees or Michael Ruse is worth capturing. But perhaps we should refer to Militant Atheism rather than "fundamentalism" NBeale 06:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply to NBeale. I think that what you mean by the "reasonable" atheism of Michael Ruse is that "open-minded" atheists accord an undeserving degree of "respect" to faith-based knowledge, and give support to the idea that unweaving the rainbow takes the mystery out of unknown unknowns [something which worries religious believers because science undermines their claims], and "unfairly" undermines superstitious beliefs. In response, moderate believers attempt to put the justified beliefs acquired by scientific knowledge on par with faith-based beliefs, without making the distinction between the merits of science, for example, progress in medicine, technology, and higher standards of living, and the fact that religions have made no such contributions to human progress in these areas. The term, "atheist fundamentalism", and the oxymoronic variant, "secular fundamentalism" represent a smear tactic, and genetic fallacy, without addressing the arguments of the so-called "fundamentalists" that moderates and apologists wish to undermine. I noticed that BrownHairedGirl set up a series of traps: for example, when I addressed the shortcomings of her arguments, my points were incorporated into the "atheist fundamentalist" narrative, for instance, when I called such an agenda "nonsense", BrownHairedGirl took this as further "proof" that my arguments were "extreme" and "intolerant" of religion, thus making the objection to outspoken views on religion impossible to falsify. This view is fatally flawed and a Tu quoque: what some religious believers and some irreligious persons want out of the word "respect" is unearned respect and deference to religious beliefs. However, simply because an atheist might criticise religion, it does not mean that they should wish to undermine the rights of others to hold such beliefs. One does not accord automatic respect to conservatives, liberals, and socialists, so why should religious beliefs remain exempt from critique? Any religion which survives critique, of course, deserves to flourish, and benefit society, just as any product, organisation, or political party which manages to sell itself well-enough deserves to stay in business. In any case, Dawkins and I would agree that if the claims of religion and theism were proved beyond reasonable doubt, then we would embrace the evidence for those positions. I doubt that many religious people would change their minds in response to evidence that contradicted their beliefs, if such evidence were found; in fact, the evidence shows that creationists represent a group of people who consistently ignore empirical data, and persist in their view that living structures were "created" by God. In the light of this, and also the fact that "believe (not X)" and "not (believe X)" are entirely different operations, the whole argument for atheism being "close-minded" falls apart. Having read extensively on Dawkins, it is understood that he does not claim to know everything, and that only a limited number of scientific theories are certain beyond reasonable doubt, i.e. evolution, quantum mechanics, and heliocentric astronomy. Blind designer 22:54, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete both How can you be a fundamentalist about this? There are no rules and beliefs to be fundamentalist about - atheism is a lack of belief in the supernatural. 07:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
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Category:Roads in Canada

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The result of the debate was rename (someone's already done Alberta). --RobertG ♬ talk 17:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename all to match format of Category:Roads in Manitoba and Category:Roads in British Columbia. -- Prove It (talk) 15:40, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:The Simpsons Movie (The soundtrack)

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The result of the debate was delete and salt (by Tregoweth) ×Meegs 20:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:The Simpsons Movie (The soundtrack) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Do we usually have categories on soundtracks? Additionally, it (as is the article that is the sole occupant of the category, which will probably end up deleted) was created by a user, Liljsakira34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), that is likely a sockpuppet of an overall user that makes mainly dubious edits, primarily this soundtrack and claiming UPN will return this fall. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 15:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Placeholder variables

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The result of the debate was merge into Category:Placeholder names. the wub "?!" 18:53, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Metasyntactic variables, or Merge into Category:Placeholder names. -- Prove It (talk) 15:18, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Celine Dion

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The result of the debate was no consensus. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Celine Dion (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete - all the articles are for songs, albums, DVDs or tours, for which categories already exist. Otto4711 14:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Worth keeping as a parent category for songs/albums etc categories. Where there is a clear justification for an eponymous category, such as a number of directly connected articles/categories then it should be kept. Having said that, I agree that it ought to be cleaned up.
Xdamrtalk 01:14, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've taken a look at this category, with a view to cleaning it up. I found that none of these articles seemed to be directly categorised under Category:Celine Dion. Rather it looks like it may be down to sloppy use of categories within article templates.
Xdamrtalk 03:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Hans Christian Andersen

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The result of the debate was rename. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Hans Christian Andersen to Category:Works of Hans Christian Andersen
Nominator's Rationale: Rename - With the exception of the lead article, all articles are about works by Andersen rather than about Andersen himself. This should be a "works of" category. Otto4711 14:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Draft picks by league

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The result of the discussion was: delete, since the category is empty now anyway.--Wizardman 19:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Draft picks by league (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, the up category for NHL draft picks, which is it's only sub-category. Neonblak 14:15, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah I can agree with that. --Djsasso 21:24, 16 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:NHL draft picks

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The result of the discussion was: keep. It's really just being used as a parent category, which is fine.--Wizardman 19:07, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:NHL draft picks (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, Non-defining characteristics, same category for MLB was proposed and deleted for same reason. Neonblak 14:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Kansas City Unions players

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The result of the debate was delete (it has already been merged). --RobertG ♬ talk 10:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Kansas City Unions players (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, Category is not needed anymore, names moved to correct category. Neonblak 14:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Britney Spears

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The result of the discussion was: keep--Wizardman 19:09, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Britney Spears (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Same reason as the recent cfds for Category:Anna Nicole Smith and Category:Paris Hilton. People should not have categories as a substitute for a well linked/what links here page. KelleyCook 12:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep Eponymous categories are merited where there are a substantial number of directly connected articles/categories. In this case Category:Britney Spears acts as a parent category for a substantial number of categories and articles—categories and articles with a direct bearing on, and link to, Spears.
Xdamrtalk 01:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - This category is a useful umbrella category for subcategories related to Britney Spears. Dr. Submillimeter 09:19, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, useful given the number of sub-categories and articles that are directly relevant (7 subcategories, 10 articles). Some of the articles might be more borderline, but it's atleast useful as a umbrella category. Mairi 21:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, per above two comments. --Djsasso 04:17, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Mairi's comment about being a useful umbrella cat. youngamerican (ahoy hoy) 15:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per topic article rule. Tim! 08:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Xdama and Dr. Submillimeter said it was useful for navigation because it gathered together those various "albums by X", etc. subcategories. I'm not sure how I feel about that as a justification for an eponymous category. For me, I look at things about X to see if the category is really useful, because things about X will not necessarily be well linked-to from the article. For instance, in George W. Bush there are books about, movement to impeach, songs critizing, GWB in fiction, articles about aspects of his life, campaigns, and administration, and articles about his malapropisms, and so on. If I really look thru the Britney Spears article, there's not that much about her. The products category, for instance -- the articles on Britney Spears perfumes from Elizabeth Arden are not, I feel certain, notable in the Category:Fragrances category, so probably should be deleted. I'm also not sure why an article about BS products needs to exist. Also in the cat are several articles about people, and categorizing people by people is not a workable scheme. ... I could go on but it's painful, actually, to look at these articles. I guess I think that if this category were properly weeded through it would shrivel down to little, not enough to maintain an eponymous category. --lquilter 14:23, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Russian Empire films

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The result of the debate was merge into Category:Russian films. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:42, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Russian Empire films to Category:Russian films
Comment. Could someone at least explain why it is a bad idea? You're all saying "Merge" but I haven't seen one person yet actually put forth a decent argument (or really, any argument at all). How is this any different from time-specific periods in other areas of the arts such as Venetian school composers, Classical music era, Ancient Roman music or Elizabethan architecture, Anime of the 1980s, to give some examples? Why should there not be categories for films from distinctly different periods in Russian film history? Esn 20:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Further Comment. Should I also nominate Category:Imperial Russia for deletion? I won't of course, and neither will I nominate either of the two German categories (or, indeed Category:Weimar Culture), because that would be known as a bad-faith nomination. Esn 23:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:The Ant Bully

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The result of the debate was delete. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:The Ant Bully (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete - A category with two articles, each already linked to the other. No likelihood of expansion. Overcategorization. Otto4711 11:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Monopoly (economics)

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The result of the debate was no consensus. the wub "?!" 19:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Monopoly (economics) to Category:Monopoly
Nominator's Rationale: Rename because monopoly is an important concept in economics. The current name was chosen on the basis that equal weight should be given to the board game with the (derivative) name Monopoly. At the time of previous discussion, Category:Monopoly (economics) was relatively unpopulated, which supported the view that the board game was of equal importance. However, Category:Monopoly (economics) now has more than twice as many articles (including those in subcategories) and the potential for many more. It should also be noted that the category nomenclature is inconsistent with that of the lead articles themselves - the article Monopoly is about monopoly, with a link to Monopoly (game). JQ 11:33, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as-is We can second-guess the 'average person' all day, giving greater weight to the board game or the economic concept as we see fit. However I think that we might all agree that, at the very least, the potential for confusion continues to exist. That being the case I see no compelling reason to change. As an adjunct to this, I would favour disambiguating the relevant article to Monopoly (economics).
Xdamrtalk 01:32, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've left a note on the Monopoly talk page, taking soundings on the potential for renaming that page Monopoly (economics). We'll see if we get any views.
Xdamrtalk 02:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment(I'm reposting my response from the talk page). :There are a number of similar cases, such as Risk, Life,Career and so on. In all these cases, the original real-world concept is the main article, and the derivative game is disambiguated. Monopoly as represented by the Post Office, Microsoft and so on is an important feature of the real world. The board game is of interest as a minor feature of popular culture.JQ 05:48, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Autistic people

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The result of the debate was rename. the wub "?!" 19:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Autistic people to Category:People with autistic spectrum disorders
Nominator's Rationale: Rename because the current name is inaccurate as applied and would be difficult to get editors to apply correctly. Some of the categorized articles are about people with conditions like Asperger's and Rett's which are not autism but are autistic spectrum disorders. Doczilla 06:24, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why? The name "autistic spectrum disorder" is clearer to people who have never heard the term before than Rett's would be to people who've never heard of it before. Also, for some of those so categorized, there is some debate as to which autistic spectrum disorder applies. Doczilla 05:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's about accuracy. People are not on the autistic spectrum. The disorders are on the autistic spectrum, and they are official DSM-IV disorders. Doczilla 04:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Psychology is a disputed field so the DSM is not NPOV. Could Category:Autistic spectrum people work? Q0 14:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Every field is disputed by someone. When fields like psychiatry and psychology create a concept such as autism, we inherently must use their criteria in applying the term. They made up the term. They make up the rules for using the term. A person does not get labeled autistic unless diagnosed with autistic disorder. Doczilla 22:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The term being internationally recognized only means that there is no geographical bias. It doesn't mean that there cannot be other forms of bias. A number of Wikipedia articles in this category are about people who don't consider autism to be a disorder. The suggested rename is POV. Q0 14:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply: That doesn't change the reality of the fact that Asperger's and Rett's are classified as pervasive developmental disorders (a.k.a. autistic spectrum disorders). Your reason for opposing is actually an argument for changing the name somehow. Creating separate categories for each would leave out the many individuals for whom professionals agree that they have some autistic spectrum disorder but disagree on which autistic spectrum disorder they have. Wryspy 22:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Famous Maneating Animals

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Famous man-eating animals. the wub "?!" 19:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Famous Maneating Animals (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete or rename. Is this category useful/well-defined/necessary? If not, what's the best name for it? At a minimum, Category:Famous man-eating animals would be better. Mairi 06:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Historical Subdivisions of South Africa

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The result of the debate was rename. the wub "?!" 19:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Historical Subdivisions of South Africa to Category:Former subdivisions of South Africa
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, "Former" is clearer and more precise than "Historical", and correct capitalization of "Subdivisons". Mairi 06:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Subdivisions of South Africa already contains Category:Former provinces of South Africa, would that be best moved into Category:Historical Subdivisions of South Africa? Personally I think that would be unnecessary categorisation.
Xdamrtalk 03:15, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Area codes in Washington, D.C.

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The result of the discussion was: keep --Wizardman 19:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Category:Area codes in Washington, D.C. (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

There is only one area code in Washington, D.C. and according to Area code 202, there is no need for an additional one until at least the year 2020. --dm (talk) 02:36, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:United States Amateur Champions

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Winners of the United States Championship for amateur boxers. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:United States Amateur Champions to Category:United States amateur boxing champions
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, This category is for boxers, but there are U.S. Amateur champions in many sports. Wilchett 02:22, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Perhaps "American …" is preferable to "United States …" − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Hamilton City Roads

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The result of the debate was rename. --RobertG ♬ talk 17:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Roads in Hamilton, Ontario. -- Prove It (talk) 02:16, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support nomination, as it makes more sense intuitively. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 06:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Object. Why would you want to put all Ontario roads into one category. It's way too large.
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Category:British emigrants by constituent country

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The result of the debate was upmerge. --RobertG ♬ talk 11:45, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:British emigrants by constituent country to Category:British emigrants
Merge (Note: "Anglo-Irish" is not a constituent country.) --Mais oui! 07:41, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Education in the United Kingdom by city

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The result of the debate was rename all. the wub "?!" 18:54, 26 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming
Nominator's Rationale: Rename, because the bar for city status in the United Kingdom is set uncommonly high by international standards. This category already contains one category for a town and it is highly likely that more will be created. Postlebury 00:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Rename. I created the category at its current place only because it's in the same form as that for the other countries. In fact, a better option would be to rename all to be 'city or town', preferably across all category groups, too. Bastin 01:02, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
As the creator of many of the categories I agree. I have added all the categories to this nomination. Postlebury 15:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - for maximum clarity it would be Education in Hoo by settlement, but that is so clumsy as to be unworkable. In which case, just stick with city. Otherwise I'll have to mention that legally there is no such thing as a city in France or Italy (just communes), or in Quebec (just villes, which cover all settlements from 1000 people up to Montreal). Kevlar67 00:36, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename all There may be no legal status of "city" in France, but it is just nonsense to say that there are no cities in France; city is a general geographical term as well as a legal term. This is the English Wikipedia, and there should be no such categories for places that are not large enough to fit the general concept of town. Olborne 14:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename all per previous comments. AshbyJnr 13:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Russian Federation films

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category or categories above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was merge into Category:Russian films. Angus McLellan (Talk) 12:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Russian Federation films to Category:Russian films
Comment - are you sure you didn't mean to post this at the "Russian Empire films" category nomination a little ways above, Kevlar? Esn 23:23, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose. Not redundant at all. "Russian films" is a category for all films which were made in Russia, regardless of which political form it took. This is a subcategory. There's also a subcategory called "Russian Empire films". How is "Russian Federation films" any more redundant than Films of Weimar Germany or Films of the Third Reich? Nobody's suggesting deleting those. I propose instead creating a category called "Russian SSR films", which will be a subcategory to both "Russian films" and "Soviet films". Esn 01:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Actually, I'd like some discussion on this if possible. I think it makes a lot of sense to have different categories for Russian films which were made in these very different times in Russian history. Would it be acceptable if the category "Russian films" had no actual articles in it but consisted of three four subcategories, "Russian Empire films", "Russian SSR films", "Russian Federation films" and "Russian-language films"? Or perhaps it would be better to take the example of the German films category and have the category "Russian films" strictly for films from the Russian Federation, with two subcategories, "Russian Empire films" and "Russian SSR films"? Esn 02:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Again, just like in that other nomination above, you have numbers on your side but not one of you is making the attempt to put forth a decent argument. If you want all Russian films in one place, why not try Category:Russian-language films? The subdivision that I am proposing is extremely unlikely to lead to confusing and inconsistent categorisation, because it is quite clear when the Russian Empire became the Russian SSR, and when the Russian SSR became the Russian Federation. Rather, the "confusing and inconsistent categorisation" exists now and is something that I would really like to fix. Nobody's sure right now what the category "Russian films" is for, considering that Russia has been part of so many different political entities. Is it for ethnically-Russian films? Is it for Russian-language films from the Soviet Union as a whole, in which case it would be pretty much redundant to "Category:Russian-language films"? Is it for films only from the political places that officially constituted Russia (eg. "Russian SSR")? However, this category is very clear in which films are to go in it and which aren't, so it's not confusing at all. It is far less confusing and inconsistent than "Category:Russian films" currently is. And as I mentioned in the other discussion above, it makes a lot of sense for there to be categories for distinctly different artistic periods. Esn 20:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
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